Tuesday, November 1, 2011

a right donnybrook

Posh, indeed.

Okay, I have probably never used that phrase in my life. However, I have read it enough for it to seem familiar. Familiar--not necessarily precise. I have a feeling I've thought of a donnybrook as more of a rout or a disaster, when I'm getting the impression it means more of a free for all, or in American imagery, a brawl in a Wild West saloon.

I also think I've thought that Donnybrook must be the sight of some battle, kind of like Waterloo, which has also become metaphoric. For some reason, my mind always had it as from the times of chivalry, and if pressed, I'd say that the image is more along the lines of knights on their chargers battling by a not impossibly large stream. Maybe on a tapestry.

So I was somewhat surprised to learn, once again on a  recently resumed discussion over at Peter Rozovsky's place ,that Donnybrook is actually one of the posher areas of Dublin. Is this just a coincidence? Or has there been a significant transformation from rowdier days of yore?

I've been to Dublin, by the way. Suffice to say I was not staying in one of more exclusive districts...

***
Well, we have the answer in one word: gentrification. Donnybrook was not always so. In fact it was the site of a famous fair which had been licenced to the corporation of Dublin in 1204, and that lasted a fortnight at it's height. Sadly, over the centuries, it became notorious for drunken brawls. No doubt it was the ancestors of the present gentry who wanted this unsavory festival shut down, but it wasn't easy. The license holders had absolute right and weren't caving to public pressure. It wasn't until 1855 that John and Peter Madden were persuaded to sell it at the behest of  the Lord Mayor of Dublin to powers that were then willing to shut it down.

We will end with not one but two musical references. First a jig:



And of course, we cannot fail to include a drinking song:

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26 comments:

  1. KathleenNovember 1, 2011 at 4:06 PM

    You have given me some excellent vocabulary "ammunition" to "fire" at my friends in Dublin! Thank you!

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  2. seana grahamNovember 1, 2011 at 4:12 PM

    Kathleen, are you headed there by any chance? My landlady was just gone last week on a tour there, but I haven't heard anything.

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  3. Peter RozovskyNovember 1, 2011 at 8:15 PM

    The old Donnybrook sounds like Ken Bruen’s “Stockwell side [of London]. This is where they mug Rottweilers.”

    Hm, Wikipedia describes Stockwell thus:

    "Once one of London's poorest neighbourhoods, it is now an up-and-coming area, owing to its close proximity to central London, excellent transport links, and diverse ethnic and cultural mix."
    ======================
    Detectives Beyond Borders
    "Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
    http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  4. seana grahamNovember 1, 2011 at 8:54 PM

    Of course, we don't know that Donnybrook was ever the poor side of town, just that had a fair that got completely out of hand.

    Kind of like Santa Cruz on Halloween may some day prove. A lot of drunken revelry to be had here.

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  5. Photographe à DublinNovember 2, 2011 at 11:19 AM

    Donnybrook is expensive rather than posh in my estimation. I've written a short piece on my blog for you which might be of use.

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  6. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 11:42 AM

    The distinction between expensive and posh is useful.
    ======================
    Detectives Beyond Borders
    "Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
    http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  7. seana grahamNovember 2, 2011 at 7:50 PM

    Posh isn't really American slang, although it has crossed over here a bit. Thanks, Maria. I'll take a look.

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  8. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 8:08 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

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  9. seana grahamNovember 2, 2011 at 8:13 PM

    Yeah, we use it here, but I can't think exactly when. There's a tinge of the Anglophile in it, anyway. I don't know what our slang would be exactly, but at one point it might have been ritzy.

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  10. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 8:15 PM

    Er, and just so you know, I recognize my typo: post for posh in the quotation.

    Ritzy, perhaps, or maybe class(y).

    ReplyDelete
  11. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 8:18 PM

    That's it: two typos. I'm reposting the comment:

    I think posh is a posh usage in America.

    I most recently heard the word from an Englishwoman, though, who has the most beguiling accent I have ever heard in my life. "I couldn't speak posh if I wanted, to," she said.

    I later asked another English member of the party what accent she had, and he said it was a bit of Scouse, a bit of Irish, a bit of Northumbrian, and "a few other things."

    ======================
    Detectives Beyond Borders
    "Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
    http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  12. seana grahamNovember 2, 2011 at 8:21 PM

    Thanks. I did understand it despite the typos, though.

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  13. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 8:47 PM

    I strive for more than mere comprehensibility, young lady.

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  14. seana grahamNovember 2, 2011 at 8:51 PM

    Yeah, but I think you said once that blogs were excused from you higher bar because they represent spontaneity or something like that.

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  15. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 9:00 PM

    Yeah, but I still am embarrassed by typos, and I don't think I can bring off the "frenzied burst of creativity" excuse.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Peter RozovskyNovember 2, 2011 at 9:03 PM

    Off topic, I signed up for Crimefest today, andI saw that our friend Declan Burke had signed up as well. It will be good to meet again, especially as we could not meet in New York recently. And here I had gone without shaving especially because I knew Arlene Hunt was going to be with the group.
    ======================
    Detectives Beyond Borders
    "Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
    http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  17. seana grahamNovember 2, 2011 at 11:04 PM

    Cool. It will be great to see him coming off a good year.

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  18. Photographe à DublinNovember 3, 2011 at 2:48 AM

    "Posh" was a horribly fashionable word when I was a child and was mostly used as a criticism. It was used to indicate that one was giving oneself airs.

    "Chic" is more neutral and probably a more up to date word to used.

    I always think of Sloane Rangers when "posh" is mentioned. Seriously scary...

    ReplyDelete
  19. Tales from the Birch Wood.November 3, 2011 at 3:15 AM

    This is probably the best site for understanding class in England:

    "http://fashionista.com/2011/04/a-not-so-serious-guide-to-sloane-ranger-style/"

    ReplyDelete
  20. adrian mckintyNovember 3, 2011 at 2:54 PM

    Seana

    They use this a lot in the Patrick O'Brian novels.

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  21. seana grahamNovember 3, 2011 at 6:46 PM

    Thanks for the Sloane Rangers link, Maria. I have heard of them before, but I really had no idea who they referred to. It seems sort of like what they used to call preppies here, except with titles.

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  22. seana grahamNovember 3, 2011 at 6:47 PM

    Adrian, it was probably the real life counterparts of those characters who had something to do with getting the fair banned. Actually, it would be nice if it could come back. Maybe it's time for an Occupy Donnybrook movement.

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  23. Photographe à DublinNovember 4, 2011 at 2:15 AM

    Jilly Cooper wrote a book called "Class" which explains the codes of the English very thoroughly. Her books are a good guide to London life.

    Riding to hounds features largely.

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  24. Photographe à DublinNovember 4, 2011 at 2:21 AM

    Donnybrook Fair is explained in the .pdf link here:

    "http://www.bramstokerestate.com/Book_Shelf.html"

    ReplyDelete
  25. seana grahamNovember 4, 2011 at 11:45 PM

    The Jilly Cooper book sounds like a fun read. And that Stoker article looks right up the alley of this blogpost. Half of the bed and breakfast I stayed in in Dublin used to be his house, so I feel some affinity. The other half at one point had been the home of Lafcadio Hearn.

    ReplyDelete
  26. AnonymousFebruary 17, 2014 at 1:52 PM

    Here is something worth mentioning, it's fresh and original: FAvorite Words .com... looking forward to see how this resource grows.

    ReplyDelete

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